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《時尚的真實代價》導演 Andrew Morgan 專訪

《時尚的真實代價》導演 Andrew Morgan 專訪

How does fashion impact the people who make it and the world we live in in 2013

An eight-story garment factory making clothes for major Western brands collapsed in Bangladesh it killed more than a thousand workers and injured thousands more 

The catastrophe motivated American filmmaker Andrew Morgan to search for answers 
這場災難促使美國電影製片人安德魯·摩根(Andrew Morgan)尋找答案

His documentary the true cost looks at both the human and environmental cost of fast fashion

Well the promise of globalization was that it was going to be a win-win that consumers in the rich world would get cheaper goods 

And people in the poorer parts of the world would get jobs and that those jobs would give them an opportunity to work their way out of

The enormous rapacious industry that is generating so much profit  why is it that it is unable 

I've kept supporting millions of its workers properly the actual business model is completely
unsustainable unless you change that model 

You can't change anything when everything is concentrated on making profits 

What you see is that human rights the environment workers rights get lost

Not surprisingly the film is raising eyebrows at film festivals and sparking debate within the fashion media around the world 

Here to discuss the film was Andrew Morgan we want to welcome you 

Too great to be here 

My god we can do so much better than that sound bite really encapsulates things how did the factory collapse impact you 

And did that set you on this journey 

Yeah it did it was kind of my way into the story 

I was finishing up my last film and I walked in to get my coffee one morning and I looked down at the cover the New York Times and I remember seeing this photograph of these two boys

That was kind of similar in age to my own boys at home and they were standing in front of
this just enormous wall of missing-person signs 

And I just it just touched me deeply and I picked up the paper and started reading about this
factory collapse and I remember standing there that morning thinking two things

One how is it possible that an industry this powerful and profitable is doing business in such a way as I was reading 

That continues to lead to the loss and lessening of life and also maybe more chilling 

I remember standing there that morning thinking how is it possible that I've never stopped to think about where my clothes came from and that kind of began a series of questions that ultimately led to the film 

How difficult was it though 

I mean one of the things that in you and I've chatted a little bit about this one of the things about making clothes 

You have to stitch and you have the stitch and you have the stitch and all of that stitching you put it together and you have a garment you had

To stitch in stitch and Stitch there are so many different layers to this story 

I mean I've seen pieces of it but one of the things I really like about your film is it it's everything out there were you surprised at some of the stitcheries that you had to come up with 

Well they always the ignorance is bliss right 

So when you start you don't know how daunting something is but I think what I decided right away was that I didn't want to make a film about Bangladesh 

So at the time you know Rana Plaza had just collapsed and that was dominating the news and I didn't just want to make a film 
所以當時您知道Rana Plaza剛剛倒塌,這在新聞中占主導地位,而我不僅僅是想拍電影

Because I didn't just this isn't just a Bangladesh issue to me it's truly one of the most uniquely global issues 

And so right away it was like I want to make a film that does move all over the world that does touch on all these issues and kind of creates an introduction to these ideas for someone

Like myself who had never thought of them before 

Like I kind of intentionally want to overwhelm someone who has never come in contact with this 

And that kind of then informed the scope and the size and everything else 

Let's talk a little bit about fast fashion I want to run a clip and then we'll talk on the backside of this 

Globalize production basically means that all of the makings of goods has been outsourced to low-cost economies 

Particularly where wages are very low and kept low

And what that means is that those at the top of the value chain they get to choose where the products are being made and they get to switch 

If for example, one factory says we can't make it that cheap anymore the brand will say well we're not going to come to you anymore we're going to switch to another place which is cheaper

In the West, they're using everyday low price so every day that hampering me and I’m hampering my workers 

This is how it is 

They are competing for the stores are competing in there 

When the stores are coming to us for order and negotiating they're telling look that particular
the store is selling this shirt with like five dollars so I needed to sell it in the $4 so you better squeeze your price

So we are squeezing then other stores coming and selling 

Hey they are selling it the $4 so the target price is three if you can meet the three you are getting business otherwise you are not getting 
嘿,他們以$ 4美元的價格出售它,所以如果您能滿足這三個條件,那麼目標價格就是三個,否則您將無法獲合作

Because we want that business so badly and we don't have other options 

Okay every time we are trying to here focus our vibration

Ultimately something's gonna give I did the price of the product has to go up or manufactures have to shut down or cut corners to make it work 

You really get the sense of this feeling of the squeeze he's not the only one that talks
about it 

Have one person who talked about you know prices have gone up for this and that 

Prices actually we're not going up when it comes to clothing and yet you know we still have to produce this stuff 

It really kind of gets at the heart of the problem and it doesn't just impact people 

It impacts the environment too 

Yeah well that's right I mean the fashion clothing is a deflationary product and that means as
you say that it's gotten cheaper it's gotten dramatically cheaper over just my lifetime 

And when you think about it you step back and you realize wait second materials haven't gotten cheaper the cost of shipping hasn't gotten cheaper 

So the only part of that equation that you can squeeze is human labor and so you very quickly begin to understand this magical formula that's generating clothing 

At just unprecedented low price points there's a cost to that 

When it pertains to human labor and then certainly as you suggest there's a price
when it comes to the environment 

There was a soundbite in the film that really struck me where 

It's you know this voluntary code of conduct we want these people to do all of these things but it's almost like they're kind of washing their hands 

We have this out there we want them to do this but as he says he's gonna get pinched I don't care about that you got to come in at $3 or $4 
我們在那裡有這些東西,我們希望他們這樣做,但是正如他說的那樣,我會被捏的,我不在乎您是否要以$ 3或$ 4的價格進來

Yeah I mean and then and then we act surprised when that system creates incredible tragedy you know 

I think it's it's a model that set up on absolutely no responsibility so it was eye-opening for me to learn that brands you know that we buy clothes from here in the West 

They don't own the factories that they produce in and by extension, they don't employ the workers that make those clothes 

So there's a completely disassociated nonresponsible supply chain put in place where they're able to wash their hands 

Anytime something happens they can act surprised they can act when in fact if you look at the model itself is creating just incredible strains 

Both in terms of people not making enough to live and also conditions that are just inhumane 

But they worked so hard at putting the model together if they work just as hard to perhaps pay these people better 

I mean we're looking at a much nicer world

Well here's the secret I think the whole model has been made possible by the assumption the arrogant assumption that you and I will not care enough to ask questions 

And I think this could change dramatically and is beginning to change because there's kind of an awakening taking place in the world 

Where I think for a long time we've grown up in a story where we've been cast as the consumer and if you're just a consumer it's like your identity your role 

And in the equation is just to be someone who buys things almost like you're standing at
the end of a long conveyor belt of the world and you're just taking it in 

But I think what's occurring to a lot of people right now in this moment is actually my choices when I buy it like they actually they have an impact

And that impact it's not that someone else is taking maybe no one's taking
care of those people 

Maybe maybe it's not a win-win 

When maybe I'm benefiting on the backs of something that I would never want to support 

And so I think as people begin to turn that corner and assert reassert and more responsibility again 

To say you know what like if I was buying this if this was produced in a facility around the corner of my community 

I would never condone it 

But just because I've been detached and just because I've kind of been taught to only see my part of the equation 

Huge portions of the world have kind of fallen through the cracks yes that could change though you know 

Yeah well it's all good it's all veiled it's behind the curtain we don't see it 

Yeah and we think about advertising you think about the shopping experience they might
go into a mall

It's an incredibly intoxicating intentional environment to make you think about you and so when you kind of step outside of that and say

Wait a minute there's a bigger story going on in the world and I'm actually playing a role in that story I'm a human being I have a responsibility I'm more than a consumer that's when 
you begin to see it differently 

You know back, years ago we all heard about the blood diamonds no one thinks that I'm wearing a blood blouse or a blood set of trousers 

But once you listen to this next sound bite you may look at things differently let's look at this and I want to get your thoughts 
Incredibly powerful what she tells her story to you that's gives you an enormous responsibility you know 

How do I put this together in such a way that her voice is heard and has an impact like you were saying to perhaps change the dynamic 

Well that was what was really important in making the film I think is that word voice ‘

Like this is a group of people who just have not had a voice in the equation and it's interesting to grow up by no doing of my own in a situation in the world 

We're like I have a voice I can speak I can use I can stand up for the things that I care about I can protest the things that aren't right in my world

And that hasn't been afforded to them and in many many ways and so I think when we came in to make the film 

One of the big desires was let's not talk about these people let's actually hear from them 

Let's actually lets I think a lot of times we can kind of objectify some of these things and to actually spend time and hours and days and weeks in the lives of these people 

And begin to understand you know their concerns and what’s and let them the voice that it’s incredibly powerful 

And now to see the film come out and see hugely powerful influential people in the world listening to someone like Shima 

That's an honor you know 

And their voice has been in the wilderness like you said 

It's not been a voice for it but there are voices out there in the fashion industry that have been heard 

Let's listen to another clip and then I want to talk to you about this 

Does it bother me the people are working in a factory making clothes for Americans server for you know Europeans 

They're that's how they're spending their lives is that what you're kind of asking 

No I mean you know they're doing a job there are a lot worse things that they could be doing 

I love you cuz you're like um yeah and I hope you say what I hope you're gonna say and she said it didn't she

Yeah yeah but she's not the only one that says I mean you have people after people saying look they could be working in coal mines that's very dangerous 

Yeah I mean they try and come up with some kind of way to justify this 

Well I think justifies the right word I think I began to notice as we start working on the film this is very offensive this film this idea of challenging globalized labor and the role that it plays in our life

It's a very people getting very I didn't expect just how touchy this was and it has it has political roots but it's something deeper than that 

And it's like a narrative that you heard her lewd to that basically says look these jobs could be horrible you know they could have buildings collapsing on their heads they could be not making enough to keep their families together

All of these things could be true but it would be worse if they didn't have these jobs and its really deceiving because there's a part of truth in it 

And the part of the truth is that yes these jobs are really really important and any effort that we do should be very cognizant of that 

You know workers will tell you that it's really important even a bad job

But I think what I'm asking in the film is why is that the best we can do like why is that a zero-sum game why is something inhumane that we're exploiting and profiting hugely off of 

That could be much improved why is it always that or nothing why isn't it that or better

Like let's bring those people along let's actually the story for a long time has been that even in areas of extreme exploitation it's leading to something better 

It's an eating stepping stone for that part of the world and it's gonna always you know ratchet on up

But what a lot of studies are starting to suggest now is that actually there's a level of exploitation at which point you're not empowering and you're not developing 

You're actually further entrenching systems of poverty and so that's why that idea began to be something that we had to confront 

Is it's just it's not enough to say we're doing something that's better than nothing

You know one of the other things that I thought was fantastic in your film and I didn't think about it is if you're gonna buy a four dollar shirt and then next week you're gonna go buy a three dollar shirt something 
You have enough money to buy seven or eight of those and then suddenly your closets full of them and so now you're gonna give them away to charity and you're gonna help people who don't have the $4 shirts but then you talk about that - 
您有足夠的錢購買其中的七八個,然後突然您的壁櫥裡裝滿了它們,所以現在您要把它們捐給慈善機構,然後您要幫助那些沒有這4美元襯衫的人, 關於那個

They all end up lumped together and they're shipped off and now people don't have jobs in the Haiti I mean it was like 

How did you find that I mean I thought that was fantastic 

Yeah well I was just I mean it's really shocking research that we were doing and I mean yeah 

You know if you live in America less than 10 percent of the clothing that's donated to thrift stores so goodwill so you know whatever

You go drop your clothes off less than 10 percent of that is sold in the thrift stores and 90 plus percent of that is shipped overseas and a lot of that is sold in the second-hand markets

Like the pepe market in port-au-prince that you're referring to and in Africa and huge parts of Africa 

And it's ending a crippling effect on the local tailoring sectors in those countries and even that is too much and it really does end up in landfills 

I mean there is a waste component of this that's staggering and it's it is the consequence of clothing going from something that we used to have and hold on to and value and repair and pass down

To suddenly it's so cheap that it is disposable like it's actually treated like a disposable good 

Now so you have clothing coming in and out of people's wardrobes at a just alarming rate 

And it was amazing to you know country after country after country around the world
to stand in landfills 

And just look at clothing like literal clothing waste farther than my eyes could see and when
you begin to realize that you know a lot of that's a non-synthetic fiber that doesn’t break down 

You're talking about an ecological issue not even mentioning what it took to make the clothes from a resource standpoint but just a way standpoint that just doesn't add up

What about Fairtrade fashion I mean how do you find out what's out there that's

Yeah Fairtrade fashion is you know built on an incredibly simple notion that they're going to take care of all the hearts and hands that touch the things that are being made 

And so it kind of looks all the way through the supply chain and says there is a responsibility to the makers 

There is a there's a responsibility all the way through to ensure living wages to ensure some empowerment to these communities 

And so when you pick up a piece of clothing that's made and has Fairtrade labeling, yeah you know right away it is vastly an improvement to every one a part of that supply chain 

And along with Fairtrade you know just other ways it's kind of you to know been called slow fashion a lot of intentional companies that are coming online now saying 

We're gonna tell you more about our process we're gonna show you the makers we're gonna own the factory we're gonna disclose the economic breakdown when you pay here's where the money goes 

You know a lot of really imaginative fascinating companies and we've got a good list at true cost there's also just if you just search for if you search for slow-fashion companies

So if I should list there's there's more every day and it's in growing and an incredibly hopeful a lot of good stuff to support 

Well we'll end on a hopeful note which I like Andrew thanks so much really
appreciate it 

Thanks for having me


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