How ESG Metrics Work And Why All Investors Should Care

This is the conscious investor presented by nuyeen.
這裡是the conscious investor由nuyeen播出
I'm here with Martin kremen Stein, the head of retirement and ETF solutions at Nuveen.
我們的來賓是Nuveen的退休和交易所交易基金解決方案負責人Martin kremenStein。

Can you talk to me about the ESG metrics and what do they measure and how good are they of measures of social responsibility and where do they fall short?
您能否跟我談談ESG指標，他們衡量的是什麼，他們對社會責任的衡量標準有多好？他們在哪些方面做得不夠？

Sure, sir. ESG stands for environmental social and governance, and what that really is is a framework for analyzing companies and really assessing how are they compared to their peers in terms of performance against these metrics.
當然可以。 ESG代表環境、社會和治理，它實際上是一個分析公司的框架，並且在這些指標的績效方面可以真正評估它們與同行的比較。

Under E for environmental, you have a water usage waste, production, and general kind of environmental behavior about how efficient they are and managing their resources, and also looking after the environment around them,
E是代表環境，是否有任何用水浪費，生產和平常的環境行為，關於它們的效率和管理資源，以及照顧周圍的環境，

Under social, it's around how well they treat their clients, how well do they treat their workers, and then there also some diversity aspects around the the management and workforce.
而社會，是關於他們如何對待客戶，他們如何對待他們的員工，然後在管理和勞動力方面也存在一些多樣性方面。

And then under governance, I mean that's around share class structure and governance structure within the company, how well-run is the company?
然後是治理，意思是圍繞公司內部的事務，股權結構和治理結構，公司現在的運營情況如何？

When you take it all together, what you're really looking at is another way of assessing a company without looking at its balance sheet, and looking at how it impacts the broader society at large.
當你把它們放在一起時，你會發現的是另一種評估公司，而不看資產負債表的方式，並研究它對整個社會的影響。

And where do these do a really good job and where do you think that they fall a little short? What can't they measure sure?
這些在哪方面做得非常好，你認為它們又在哪方面有缺失？ 無法衡量哪一方面?

So, I think when they do it, they do a good job in terms of how well is Company A doing compared to Company B.
我認為，當他們這樣做時，他們可以在評估是否在A公司做得比B公司好的方面做得很好。

But it's less good, I think, you're looking at what is the overall mission of a company, in terms of, is it out there to do good. and if so, how do you manage that?
但他不能評估的是，一家公司的使命為何，就這點而言，這家公司是否有在做任何善事，如果有，要如何去衡量?

I think the other way, where it kind of falls a little bit short is that it's it's a little bit of a framework.
我認為從這方面來談，是有些不足....有點過於框架化了

So, lots of people have different views around what is more important.
因此，有許多人在真正重要的東西上有不同看法

For some people, it's around environmental that's more important, for others it's social, for others it's governance.
對於某些人而言，環境最重要，對某些人來說，社會重要，對某些人來說則是治理。

You know, as many people as there are in a room, there are going to be different opinions as to what actually is important.
你知道，就像一個房間裡的人一樣，對於實際上重要的東西，會有不同的意見。

And so, unless you are gonna go and build a bespoke portfolio for someone in a separately managed account, there's gonna be have some to, have to be some degree of compromise around how that ESG framework is actually going to be applied.
因此，除非你要為一個單獨管理的帳戶中的某個人構建一個定制的評估組合，否則將來在如何實際應用ESG框架上肯定會有一定程度的妥協。

And are they self-reported? Our company is tell its sharing these metrics with you, I mean, with investors at large?
他們的資料是來自自我報告的嗎？ 所以我的公司與您分享這些資訊，我的意思是，與投資者一起分享？

Yeah, so most of the data is public.
是的，大部分資訊都是公開的。

It's a combination of self-reported, and also analysis done by you know analysts who are pouring out company factsheets, their regulatory reporting, and so forth.
這是一個組合，由自我報告書，和由分析師完成的分析，他們會全面了解公司的情況，監管報告等等。

So, because of that, you do tend to get better reporting from larger companies.
因此，正因為如此，您確實可以從越大公司獲得更好的報告。

But you can get reporting for companies all the way down the cap structure, cap size, and also internationally as well.
但是，您可以獲得關於公司結構，上限規模以及國際範圍的報告。

You know, we're able to produce an ESG framework that enables you to look at large cap value, as well as small cap but also emerging markets, in developed markets as well.
您知道，我們能夠制定一個ESG框架，使您能夠在市場中查看大盤，小盤股以及新興市場的情況。

And do you have advice for people who want to invest along their values, and who, maybe haven't spent a lot of time looking at the ESG metrics? What is some way to get them over the hurdle, where it feels like there's just too many options, and they want to put their money where their values are?
對於想要按照自己的價值觀投資的人，以及可能沒有花費大量時間查看ESG指標的人，您有什麼建議？ 有什麼辦法讓他們克服障礙？感覺有太多的選擇，他們只是想把錢放在價值所在的地方。

Sure, so, I think there are a couple of things.
當然，我認為有一些事情可以說。

First of all, they are gonna have to define for themselves, what what's important to them?
第一，他們要自己定義出對他們最重要的是什麼?

And you know, there are certain ESG providers that have a very specific slant to how they're doing it, and they have to decide whether that's what they're looking for, whether it's based on religious or certain other social aspects.
而且你知道，某些ESG提供商對他們的做法有著非常明確的方向，消費者們必須決定這是他們正在尋找的，無論是基於宗教還是某些其他社會層面。

If they're looking for just general, you know ESG, and in terms of framework, for companies that are better stewards of their you know the environment and social, then you really they should either look for ESG providers.
如果他們只是在找尋普通的ESG，或是框架評價，有利於更了解公司的環境和社交方面，那麼應該要去找ESG供應商

There are certain companies that have been in this space for a long, long time.
某些公司長期以來一直在這個領域深耕。

And all ESG funds will be labeled ESG, or responsible investing, or impact, because, you know, if you have any SG fund, you are gonna put that in the name somewhere.
所有ESG基金都將被標記為ESG，或responsible investing或 impact，因為如果您有任何ESG基金，他一定會有這種名字的標記。

And then you need to look at how the products work.
然後若你想看這個產品是如何運作的

You know, look at the the criteria by which companies are being scored.
你知道，看看公司得分的標準是如何。

That should be very, very clear, and apparent within the funds literature.
在基金文獻中，這些資訊應該是非常非常明確的。

If it isn’t, and maybe then move on to another provider.
如果不是如此，那可能就要換一家供應商了

If you're looking at your retirement plan, maybe talk to whoever runs your company's retirement plan, are some about responsible investing options for that plan.
如果您正在尋找您的退休計劃，也許可以與執行貴公司退休計劃的人詢問，是否有關於責任投資的退休規劃選項。

Is there a trade-off? Do you feel like that you can still make money, and invest it  responsibly?
有沒有權衡點？ 你覺得是否可以同時賺錢，並負責任地投資？

So, historically the Nok has been that to actually have responsible investing, you had to give up some performance.
從歷史上的觀點看來，實際上有負責任的投資，必須不得不放棄一些表現。

I think we're seeing now that that isn't the case, and we're actually seeing lots of times we're using an ESG framework, can actually help you avoid companies with bad practices.
我認為我們現在的情況並非如此，而且我們實際上已經看到很多次我們正在使用的ESG框架，實際上可以幫助您避開有不良做風的公司。

And for example, we had the Equifax scandal sometime last year, right?
例如，我們去年的時候有過Equifax醜聞，對吧？

Equifax had actually been downgraded by major ESG data providers over data privacy and security issues about 18 months to two years beforehand
主要的ESG數據提供商實際上已將Equifax降級，因為其數據隱私和安全問題，在事情發生前大約18個月到兩年

Within our large-cap growth ETF, Facebook hadn't been included because it's called relatively poorly compared to other tech companies over data privacy concerns. 
在我們的大盤增長ETF中，Facebook沒有被包括在內，因為與其他科技公司相比，它在數據隱私問題上的表現相對較差。

That was not something that I ever considered as part of the ESG framework, is data privacy, but it's very important to a lot of people, a lot of people are divesting for Facebook now.
我從來沒有想過ESG框架可以這樣來評估使用，這個數據隱私的問題，對許多人來說都十分重要，很多人正在就這點在脫離Facebook

How does that metric work in ESG?
所以該指標在ESG中是如何運作的？

So, when you're looking at a common data provider score in the company, so we use MSCI as your data provider.
當您查看該公司中的常見數據提供者分數時，我們將MSCI指數拿來評分您的數據提供者。

When they score the company, they score it based on all the different you know criteria, and under social data privacy is in there.
當他們對公司進行評分時，他們會根據所有不同的標準對其進行評分，並且在社交數據隱私也在評分項目中。

But also, if you’re looking at controversial business practices, which is another another way of scoring companies, you look at things that could be controversial.
但是如果您的是以爭議性的公司行為來評斷,，這也是一種評分的標準，您會專注在爭議性上

And so the data privacy thing had come up from, I think that 2014 kind of conversation Facebook had with the government.
而現在數據隱私問題已經出現了，在2014年Facebook與政府的對話中。

So, that was something was always on the radar, and so Facebook doesn't have a particularly bad ESG score on absolute terms, but compared to the rest of the tech sector, which tends to do better, it's called relatively poorly.
所以這件事情浮上了檯面；Facebook並沒有特別低的ESG評價，但與其他科技公司相比，後者往往做得更好，這叫做相對性的比較差。

So within our large cap growth ETF, right it's called poorly in tech, it didn't make the cutoff for text we didn't have it in there.
因此，在我們的大盤增長ETF中，它被稱為技術不佳，因此它沒有被我們放入那裡的文本的資格。

So, last year, as Facebook did quite well, our performance suffered.
所以，去年，由於Facebook做得很好，我們的表現受到了影響。

This year, without Facebook in there, our performance has done quite well.
今年，在沒有Facebook的情況下，我們的表現相當不錯。

And divesting seems to be one way in which a lot of people want to express their values.
而撤資對許多人來說似乎是一個表達自我價值觀的方法

Is that something that you're seeing? And how effective is divesting, as a method of making a difference? 
您是這麼看的嗎?作為一種有所作為的方法，撤資的效果如何？

So, divestment is one tactic you can use, I think we have certain industries where we do diverse from, so weapons manufacturers, alcohol, gambling, tobacco, and then nuclear power.
因此，撤資是你可以使用的一種策略，我認為我們有一些行業，都是可以做撤資手段的，比如武器製造商，酒精，賭博，煙草，然後核電。

However, you know those are industries that we feel that like they're essentially－ they're putting that sin stock basket, and so we divest.
然而，你知道那些行業我們覺得他們本質上就是 - 他們屬於罪惡股的範疇內，所以我們撤資了。

Beyond that, I think if you are just doing straight divesting, what you are doing is taking yourself out of the conversation with the company, with the issue of the stock.
除此之外，我認為如果你只是直接撤資，你正在做的就只是讓自己脫離與公司的對話機會，以及股票的問題。

For example, if you were to divest from energy companies, you couldn't actually be in a conversation with them as a major shareholder, encouraging them to look at say, renewables.
例如，如果你從能源公司撤資，你就不能與他們的主要股東進行對話，並且鼓勵他們看看可再生能源。

Right, so you need to kind of weigh up divesting, which is alright, I feel good, cuz I'm not invested in what I think is a sin stock, versus, well I have no say in trying to influence that company's behavior.
是的，所以你需要權衡撤資的行為，例如:沒關係，我感覺很好，因為我沒有投資於我認為是一個罪惡股；對比於，我失去了能影響該公司的行為的發言權。

So, it can be a little bit self-defeating, because you've now moved yourself from that conversation with the company.
所以，它可能有點弄巧成拙，因為你現在已經從與公司的談話中脫離出來了。

And how much does it cost to be a good, to be a socially responsible investor?
作為一個有社會責任感的投資者，成為一個好人需要多少錢？

Are fees higher on socially responsible investment products?
社會責任投資產品的費用是否更高？

Not particularly, I mean we price our ETFs, somewhere between the straight kind of market cap way too benchmarked, and smart beta.
不會，我的意思是，我們的ETF的定價，我們對ETF進行定價，介於直接市值加權基準和智慧型投資策略之間。。

And when you look at how we're scoring the companies, someone said to me, “Well, it’s very much like non-financial quality factors.”
當你看到我們如何評價公司時，有人會說，“嗯，這非常像非財務質量因素。”

You can look at ESG is almost like a smart beta overlay, particularly when you consider the risk management aspects of it.
您可以看一下ESG幾乎就像smart beta一般，特別是當您考慮它的風險管理方面時。

We actually put together a series of portfolios using all the building blocks within our ESG ETF suite, and it came in most of the time under 30 basis points.
實際上，我們使用我們的ESG ETF中的所有構建塊組合了一系列投資組合，並且大部分時間都在30個基點以下。

So, you think investors can actually you know invest according to their beliefs, without paying over the odds to do so.
因此，投資者實際上是可以根據自己的信念進行投資，而無需為此付出代價的。

And can you talk about that a little bit, like the smart beta, and the benefit from investing from not investing in things like Facebook?
您是否可以談談這一點，像是smart beta，以及在不投資Facebook這樣的事情帶來的收益？

Well so, if you think about the factors themselves, they are effectively how well-run is the company?
如果你在考慮這些因素，它們是否是一個運作良好的公司？

So, you're looking at quality factors, right?
所以，你在尋找的是品質的條件，對吧？

And quality is one of the more nebulous of the smart beta major factors.
而品質一直都是smart beta中的一個主要環節

And so you could say, “well, actually this is just another way of defining quality in the company, right?”
所以你可以說，“好吧，實際上這只是確定公司品質的另一種方式，對吧？”

Does it waste resources? does it look after its customers, and get it stay out of trouble with the regulators? And does it have a decent management structure that encourages accountability?
它會浪費資源嗎？ 它是否照顧客戶，讓它與監管機構保持一致？ 它是否有一個良好的管理結構，並且鼓勵問責制度？

And so, by having that framework in place, you're able to avoid companies like Volkswagen.
所以，擁有一個這樣的框架，你就有辦法避免投資像福斯這種公司

BP, before the Deepwater Horizon incident, had actually been downgraded and removed from major ESG indices, over concerns about its outsourcing of maintenance of offshore oil wells, right which is precisely what happened there.
英國石油公司在“深水地平線”事件發生之前，就已被降級並從主要的ESG指數中刪除，因為人們擔心海外油井的維護外包，這正也是之後所發生的事情。

So it's really a very, very good risk management tool, and you know MSC a do research, and I think they found that companies in the bottom 10% for ESG score had a much, much higher likelihood of what they deemed to be a catastrophic or a material drop in share price from an incident.
所以它確實是一個非常非常好的風險管理工具，你知道MSC做了一項研究，我認為他們發現ESG得分最低10％的公司有更多可能性，會發生災難性的事件使其股價大幅下跌。

And by material, they were talking ninety percent.
就這方面來看，他們講了90%正確

And so, by actually having this framework in place you are really putting in place a method for trying to avoid tail risk from companies that are badly run, and may end up having serious, serious scandals in the press.
因此，通過使用這個框架，你可以建立一種方法，避免那些最終可能在媒體上發生嚴重的醜聞的，運行不良公司的尾部風險。
 

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